Talk:History of Russia

History of russia

Talk 173.189.70.213 (talk) 22:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The amount of things factually incorrect in this article is mind boggling!

Such an article should not be based on myths and falsehoods propagated by the Russian Empire in the 18th to 20th century.

Historically accurate version:

The history of Russia begins with the history of the various Finno-Ugric tribes in the area known to the Rus' as Zalesye. The start-date of specifically Russian history is the establishment of the Independent Grand Duchy of Vladimir-Suzdal in 1169.

The state adopted Christianity from the Rus', who brought it onto its lands in 1157 prior its to independence. After the Mongol invasions in 1237–1240 the Grand Duchy of Vladimir-Suzdal, along with the other Principalities formerly belonging to Rus', was forced to accept the overlordship of the Mongols.

The rest, which was not corrected, was cut due to irrelevance. Valdazleifr (talk) 14:21, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Unless clear, this correction, only concerns the first paragraph/section of the article. Valdazleifr (talk) 14:23, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:OVERLAP 13th to 16th century

History of Russia#Mongol invasion and vassalage (1223–1480) and History of Russia#Grand Duchy of Moscow (1283–1547) narratively overlap 4 centuries, containing a lot of duplicate information. I think this is because this article, History of Russia, is trying to do two things simultaneously:

1. tell the history of the Russian state, from Kievan Rus' to Vladimir-Suzdal to Muscovy to the Tsardom, Empire, Soviet Union and Federation; and
2. tell the history of the country of Russia as a geographical area in Eastern Europe and all of Northern Asia (as covered by the Russian Federation since 1991).

For #1, it makes sense to take a Muscovite perspective. For #2, that perspective is way too narrow, and it makes sense to talk extensively about not just all the other Rus' principalities like Novgorod Republic, Novgorod-Suzdal, Tver, Ryazan, Rostov etc. but also all those non-Rus' states such as khanates, emirates, empires, kingdoms etc. that existed on the Eurasian steppe and Siberia before Moscow conquered them. We can't really do both simultaneously without creating the massive overlap that the article is currently showing. I'd like to improve this article, but perhaps we should reach agreement about this first.

A third alternative to a state-based or geography-based narrative would be to just make things chronological, by century for example. Instead of looking at events only through the eyes of the Mongols / Golden Horde (which also has its problems, as e.g. the Novgorod Republic was never subjected by it), or only through the eyes of Muscovy, we can explain relevant events that happened in, say, the 15th century under the heading 15th century. This prevents overlap and duplication of information. I'm curious what other editors think, but if nobody responds, I think I'm gonna introduce century-based sections to solve the issues. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:06, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

article’s historic infidelity

The amount of things factually incorrect in this article is mind boggling! Such an article should not be based on myths and falsehoods propagated by the Russian Empire in the 18th to 20th century. Valdazleifr (talk) 14:19, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

You need to be more specific Marcelus (talk) 21:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Prehistory

To say that prehistory of Siberia has to do with the prehistory of Russia is in my opinion not correct. This would be the same as to say that prehistory of Denmark has to do with prehistory of Greenland. Just because Greenland is under Denmark rule the prehistories have nothing in common. Kinna (talk) 21:54, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I aggree! This is nonsense. And the complete paragraph of prehistory is very, very poor. E.G. the Mesolitic an AC/C-Neolithic periods are completely missing!HJJHolm (talk) 11:23, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Gene pool

Do I need to explain the problem with citing a book about the gene pool of ethnic Russians to change the first sentence of this article? Not to mention the other unexplained POV changes. Mellk (talk) 11:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay didn't notice at first. I can replace it with other source. Now, what are these other "POV edits"? Shahray (talk) 07:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

First, you must self-revert. You do not have consensus for your changes. Mellk (talk) 07:11, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I deleted what is disputed, for everything else you haven't made an explanation yet. Shahray (talk) 07:19, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

No, I disputed all the changes. I have already mentioned elsewhere that you made a large number of unexplained and unsourced changes. The long-standing text does not need to be changed, you made POV changes to the wording for no good reason. Mellk (talk) 07:20, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

For example? So far I only heard something about russians and suzdalians. Shahray (talk) 07:25, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

For some reason, in the history of Ukraine article, you are OK with adding claims like "Ukrainian territories" formed the core of Kievan Rus,[1] but on this article, you made blanket changes of Russia/Russian to modern Russia/Russian and other terms based on personal opinion. Are you going to fully self-revert or not? Mellk (talk) 07:33, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It isn't a claim, this is how it's written in the main Ukraine article as well.

I overviewed and found only one example where "modern" can be out of place. For everything else, again, you haven't given explanation. Shahray (talk) 07:48, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I have told you why you were reverted. I do not see the point of discussing further if you are not willing to undo your changes. An admin told you that you should avoid reverting in such instances, but even that is apparently not enough. Mellk (talk) 07:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

So far you only given explanation for "modern" and "Finno-Ugric", and I deleted them. I will undo them all, if you will give actual explanation and reason, but for now you're just again summarising it like "complete nonsense". How am I supposed to interpret this? Shahray (talk) 07:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

This is not how it works. You do not have consensus for your changes. You were told repeatedly to read WP:BRD. You were reverted. Rather than edit warring, you are supposed to discuss with me and get consensus for your changes. Mellk (talk) 08:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Then must read this part of WP:BRD:"If you revert, be specific about your reasons in the edit summary or on the talk page". If you just write "I don't agree", and then delete all of the changes, it's not how it works either. Be specific about your reasons, Mellk. Shahray (talk) 08:13, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

You missed the part where it says "don't restore your bold edit, don't make a different edit to this part of the page, don't engage in back-and-forth reverting". You have restored your edit and refuse to self-revert. I have already given you a specific reason for reverting, I am not expected to write an essay in the edit summary explaining why I oppose every single change. Mellk (talk) 08:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

That follows after reasoning part, which you haven't given yet. So keep that in mind and follow the policy. Shahray (talk) 08:20, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

You made more than a dozen changes to the wording. I do not need to list all these changes you made when you can take a look at the diff yourself and see what you changed. This is a waste of time.

As I already mentioned, there is no good reason to change the wording. The previous wording was fine. If you disagree, suggest what should be changed here on the talk page and get consensus for your changes first rather than edit warring.

Finally, there is no reason to mention Finno-Ugric origins of ethnic Russians in the opening sentence. The article is about the history of Russia, not the ethnic origins of Russians and Finno-Ugric tribes (citing a source about the gene pool) is not relevant there. You also added detail about Askold and Dir. I do not need the point of inserting "Land of Rus", when, like on the talk page of history of Ukraine, you were told by User:Alaexis that this was term was unclear and does not belong there. This fixation on "Land of Rus" and your attempts to associate Ukraine with it is disruptive at this point. Mellk (talk) 03:04, 11 October 2024 (UTC)